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on this episode of skeptic Oh Rupert

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sheldrick returns to skeptic Oh to talk

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about his latest book science set free I

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think all these questions of this

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spiritual are not very deep in these

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questions they're right there under the

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paper thins surface of it survival of

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consciousness I mean that immediately

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for any man on the street as well as any

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scientists immediately launch us into

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deep questions of the spiritual I don't

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know how you get around that although

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the science is very relevant to these

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issues it doesn't nap in such a way that

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you know to be an atheist you've got to

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be a kind of dork in style materialist

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ought to be a religious person you've

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got to be a duelist I think what we're

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heading for is in a post materialist

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worldview which is what my book is

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trying to point the way towards we could

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have a holistic way of looking at things

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a scientific investigation of things

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which leaves these bigger questions open

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welcome to skeptic aware we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host aleksic Harrison on

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today's episode we welcome Rupert

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sheldrick back to skeptic Oh dr.

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sheldrick has a new book out as matter

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of fact I think today might be the

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launch day for it in the US it's called

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science set free and the set free is

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from materialism and he poses many

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interesting questions to the

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conventional ideas science is married to

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with regard to materialism interesting

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book from a fascinating guest here's my

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dialogue with dr. Rupert shelter today

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we welcome back to skeptic Oh biologist

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and author dr. Rupert sheldrick he's

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here to talk about his latest book the

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science delusion or if you're here in

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the US you'll find it at amazon under

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the title science set free Rupert

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welcome back and thanks for joining me

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hey good to be with you again well as

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folks who are longtime listeners of this

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show probably know you were not only the

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first guest on skeptic oh but your work

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was certainly a source of inspiration

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for the show and now all these millions

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of page views and downloads later I want

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to again thank you for helping to send

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me on this journey it's been it's been

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wonderful and I certainly appreciate the

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guidance that you've given along the way

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well I'm really impressed with what

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you've done Alex I think that you've

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moved this whole debate to a new level

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because you've been able to bring in

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people from both sides and you know open

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up these questions and before that there

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were people in warring camps and who

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didn't talk to each other I think yours

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is probably the only platform which

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gives you know free fair hearing to all

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points of view in this controversial

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area well speaking of warring sides

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that's probably a great segue into your

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latest book and I wanted to in the

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introduction their kind of highlight

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this title change because I find it

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quite curious i understand that as an

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author you can't always control the

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whims of a publisher who looks to sell

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more books but

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wow what a what a change from how the

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science delusion and everything that

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that conjures up to a big old smiley

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face science set free any thoughts on

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that well in Britain and my original

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title was to do with the dogmas of

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science and and in a liberating science

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from dogmas but my British publishers

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were very keen to call it the science

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delusion because of course that plays

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off the title of richard dawkins book

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The God Delusion and the book is not an

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answer to Dawkins and it's not I mean

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he's mentioned a few times in the book

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but it's certainly not a kind of

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polemical response but the sales and

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marketing team in Britain at my

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publishers said that the book would sell

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twice as many if it was called the

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science tribution compared with my

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original title and so they twisted my

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arm and I agreed to it and I mean I I'm

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okay with that title but in the US the

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publishers didn't want to call it the

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Science Division first of all Richard

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Dawkins and his book the contribution of

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much less well known in the US and they

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are in Britain everybody's heard of it

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in Britain in the u.s. quite loss of

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heard of it but you know even when I'm

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talking to friends of mine in the US and

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in Canada sometimes I say you know the

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god delusion by richard dawkins and they

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say Richard who and they're simply he's

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simply not as well known except in the

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kind of atheist rationalist crowd he's

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very well known there and the other

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thing is that for people who haven't

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heard of him or his book and who

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wouldn't get the allusion to the god

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delusion and they were afraid that many

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people in the US would interpret this as

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a kind of right-wing tract pro

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creationism anti-mutant climate change

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because there's a kind of anti-science

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movement in the US which doesn't really

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exist in Europe and they thought people

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would miss identify this book as a

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polemical attack on science in fact it's

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prosigns it's trying to advance science

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and the scientific agenda by

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helping to free it up from the dogmas

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that are holding it back so it's not

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anti-science it's prosigns and sunset

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free captures the meaning the intention

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of the book better actually great great

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I'm glad you think so and I think the

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book is pro science and I definitely

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want to talk about that and I guess the

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way into that is to pull apart this word

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science you've spent a good deal of time

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talking about it in the history of

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science and the philosophy of science

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but of course as soon as we get in there

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we're kind of burdened with this science

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as a position vs science as a method and

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as much as we'd like to kind of look at

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it in purist terms and say it's a

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methodology and it's really just a tool

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kit it also does represent something in

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the public discourse we have science is

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a position so how did you kind of handle

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that in in your book or what did you

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seek to do with this idea that of being

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pro science well you see I'd like to the

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science as a method approach I think

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science is the best method we have for

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looking into things and inquiring into

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things in a cumulative way and I'm but

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it's held back by dogmas and it took me

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a while to realize just what those

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dogmas are because when you're learning

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science somebody that nobody says here

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are the ten dogmas no you got to believe

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these and they're not usually spelled

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out and most people aren't even aware

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that they're dogmatic assumptions most

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people within science and outside sounds

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think that these are truths scientific

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truth and many people who believe in

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science they often say I believe in

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science and think that other people

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religious people have beliefs but by

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contrast those who believe in science or

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the scientific worldview know the truth

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and so that's a problem and it's the

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dogmas making the dogmas explicit first

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that was the challenge and then what I

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do in the book is turn them into

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questions so I'm not saying this dog

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is wrong I'm saying let's take it as a

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question not as a fact for example the

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doubler the mind is inside the brain the

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mind is the brain becomes a question is

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the mind confined to the brain the dogma

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matter is unconscious becomes is matter

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unconscious the dogma the total amount

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of matter and energy is always the same

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becomes the question is the total amount

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of natural energy always the same and

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when one turns them into questions and

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looks at the evidence the facts what

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science itself have shown it turns out

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in every case these dogmatic assumptions

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are simply assumptions they're not just

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assumptions they're actually wrong and

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yet they're the foundations of Sciences

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is currently practiced and most people

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aren't even aware they're making those

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assumptions so that's really what my

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books trying to do and when I tournament

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questions and all sorts of new kinds of

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science become possible still using

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scientific methods still using evidence

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still using scientific procedures reason

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and logic and all the rest of it and but

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not burn to this narrow framework which

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is holding everything back you know I

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want to push that just a little bit

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further because early on in the book you

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state that sciences intellectual

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prestige is almost unchallenged those

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are your words and I wonder if there

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isn't really a flip side to that at some

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level that's true and at a nother level

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it's equally true that science has been

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fundamentally discredited in recent

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years so we can look at climate gate or

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we can look at peak oil or even UFOs and

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ghosts even evolution all those are

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topics that have kind of come to the

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fore and science has had their say and

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in one way or another has come out of it

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pretty battered as a result I think the

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average person walking around certainly

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in the US will nod their head with the

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intellectual prestige of science

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nonsense but when you really speak to

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them privately that they just don't put

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a lot of stock in science I think as

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more in the u.s. than in most other

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places in China and India and in most of

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Europe they still

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do but I think that you know that what

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makes science is prestige so great is

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not so much the scientific content of

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science but the fact that we all use

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things like cellphones and computers and

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fly on jet planes and watch TV and that

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kind of thing these technological

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achievements completely transforming the

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planet and who they are but I think I

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think people are able to understand

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technology and engineering and say wow

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this is great my new iphone 5 is

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fantastic and they're able to separate

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that from the quote-unquote scientist

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who stands up there and says this or

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that about climate change or about any

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of these other topics that then turn out

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to be not only provably wrong but just

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kind of on the surface of it's silly I

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mean the idea of free will or

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consciousness or any of these things

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that wind up with your propositions just

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looking rather silly I think people have

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really internalized the extent to which

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science just doesn't have these answers

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I mean I think there's some to some

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extent that may be true but the fact is

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in many of the areas where scientific

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dogmas prevail they're not really

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challenged very much they're mostly

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challenged in areas like consciousness

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medicine and in some of the applications

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of science but some of these I mean the

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conservation of matter and energy the

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idea that memories are stored inside the

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brain the idea of the laws of nature of

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fixed quite a lot of these other dogmas

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are not very much discussed and I think

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that it'sit's when one looks at the

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whole picture the broad picture 1 seized

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a consistent pattern a lot of the

273
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problems that arise from science and

274
00:12:01,970 --> 00:11:57,839
public image at the moment are because

275
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of its dogmatism and and also because of

276
00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:03,600
the way in which science has actually

277
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:06,240
pursued which is not really a culture of

278
00:12:14,030 --> 00:12:08,490
open debate and discussion but a kind of

279
00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:14,040
authoritarian system so I did the book

280
00:12:18,379 --> 00:12:16,529
anyway is an attempt to look at the

281
00:12:20,269 --> 00:12:18,389
dogmas and in a way that I hope will

282
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help those who've already begun to

283
00:12:25,369 --> 00:12:21,839
question science and for those who

284
00:12:26,809 --> 00:12:25,379
haven't to show that things could be

285
00:12:29,329 --> 00:12:26,819
from the way they are now and

286
00:12:30,979 --> 00:12:29,339
potentially about much better you know

287
00:12:33,079 --> 00:12:30,989
if someone reads your book one of the

288
00:12:34,929 --> 00:12:33,089
propositions that you make that comes to

289
00:12:38,089 --> 00:12:34,939
the forefront pretty quickly is

290
00:12:39,409 --> 00:12:38,099
materialism this idea that your mind is

291
00:12:42,589 --> 00:12:39,419
equal to your brain you are this

292
00:12:45,469 --> 00:12:42,599
biological robot but you point out I

293
00:12:48,649 --> 00:12:45,479
think quite convincingly how flawed this

294
00:12:50,719 --> 00:12:48,659
idea really is but I'm not sure that you

295
00:12:52,909 --> 00:12:50,729
answer the next question that I seem to

296
00:12:55,969 --> 00:12:52,919
encounter most with people that I talk

297
00:12:58,579 --> 00:12:55,979
to and that's how can this be questioned

298
00:13:00,229 --> 00:12:58,589
you know so people say gee okay dude

299
00:13:02,359 --> 00:13:00,239
sounds very persuasive what you're

300
00:13:04,279 --> 00:13:02,369
saying but how can these people be so

301
00:13:06,649 --> 00:13:04,289
fundamentally wrong about such an

302
00:13:08,149 --> 00:13:06,659
important question how can these guys be

303
00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:08,159
so wrong these are the guys we look up

304
00:13:11,149 --> 00:13:09,809
to these guys we prop up this is what

305
00:13:13,219 --> 00:13:11,159
everything's built on how can it be so

306
00:13:14,929 --> 00:13:13,229
wrong well I think the simplest way of

307
00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:14,939
answering that is to look at the history

308
00:13:21,379 --> 00:13:18,649
of it and be the history of it is that

309
00:13:23,179 --> 00:13:21,389
in the 17th century the Scientific

310
00:13:25,849 --> 00:13:23,189
Revolution which gave us science as we

311
00:13:28,249 --> 00:13:25,859
know it was revolutionary precisely

312
00:13:30,619 --> 00:13:28,259
because it broke away from the earlier

313
00:13:32,299 --> 00:13:30,629
view which was that nature was organic

314
00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:32,309
the earth was like an organism the

315
00:13:36,919 --> 00:13:34,409
universe was like an organism animals

316
00:13:38,809 --> 00:13:36,929
and plants were truly living beings with

317
00:13:41,719 --> 00:13:38,819
Souls the word animal comes from the

318
00:13:44,029 --> 00:13:41,729
latin word animal for soul so the

319
00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:44,039
previous views that nature's of life and

320
00:13:49,159 --> 00:13:47,069
organic the machine theory which is what

321
00:13:51,739 --> 00:13:49,169
modern science was based on in the 17th

322
00:13:54,109 --> 00:13:51,749
century said nature's not alive and

323
00:13:57,069 --> 00:13:54,119
organic it's its mechanical and

324
00:13:59,539 --> 00:13:57,079
unconscious matters and mechanical

325
00:14:01,369 --> 00:13:59,549
animals and plants are just machines the

326
00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:01,379
Earth's a machine human body's a machine

327
00:14:06,289 --> 00:14:03,689
at the only exception in the whole

328
00:14:08,749 --> 00:14:06,299
universe that's not a machine is the

329
00:14:11,479 --> 00:14:08,759
human mind which is not material not

330
00:14:13,699 --> 00:14:11,489
physical and and God and the angels

331
00:14:15,499 --> 00:14:13,709
these are part of spiritual reality

332
00:14:17,359 --> 00:14:15,509
everything else is mechanical and

333
00:14:19,999 --> 00:14:17,369
unconscious that's caught using

334
00:14:22,789 --> 00:14:20,009
journalism and that was the dualism

335
00:14:25,759 --> 00:14:22,799
between people and nature humans and

336
00:14:27,829 --> 00:14:25,769
other animals spirit and matter which

337
00:14:31,729 --> 00:14:27,839
science was based on for two or three

338
00:14:33,559 --> 00:14:31,739
centuries and how materialism arose is

339
00:14:35,779 --> 00:14:33,569
the materialist said we don't want this

340
00:14:37,759 --> 00:14:35,789
mysterious spirit that you can't measure

341
00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:37,769
or touch and it's not in space and time

342
00:14:52,930 --> 00:14:38,750
in

343
00:14:56,350 --> 00:14:52,940
and angels don't exist anyway they're

344
00:14:58,390 --> 00:14:56,360
just figments of the imagination and so

345
00:15:01,660 --> 00:14:58,400
they collapsed the steel ism into a

346
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:01,670
monism a single thing T realism matters

347
00:15:07,330 --> 00:15:05,450
the only reality and and that doesn't

348
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:07,340
make much difference for engineering or

349
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:09,680
making iPhones and things but it does

350
00:15:12,580 --> 00:15:11,330
make a lot of difference if one's trying

351
00:15:15,370 --> 00:15:12,590
to understand the nature of the human

352
00:15:16,570 --> 00:15:15,380
mind or consciousness and that's of

353
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:16,580
course the biggest problem with

354
00:15:22,180 --> 00:15:19,370
materialism if matters unconscious how

355
00:15:23,650 --> 00:15:22,190
come that we are conscious then they

356
00:15:26,380 --> 00:15:23,660
have to say that consciousness is either

357
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:26,390
an illusion or it doesn't actually do

358
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:29,210
anything it's just sort of like a shadow

359
00:15:33,310 --> 00:15:31,130
around the physical activity of the

360
00:15:35,050 --> 00:15:33,320
brain and so consciousness becomes a

361
00:15:37,390 --> 00:15:35,060
huge problem an embarrassment from

362
00:15:41,050 --> 00:15:37,400
materialism it's in fact called the hard

363
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:41,060
problem in philosophy of mind and so

364
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:43,970
though materialists have claimed the

365
00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:46,490
prestige of all modern science and

366
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:48,980
technology their least successful when

367
00:15:54,579 --> 00:15:51,170
dealing with the nature of human minds

368
00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:54,589
or consciousness and so it's not as if

369
00:15:58,600 --> 00:15:56,780
materialism has been very triumphant in

370
00:16:01,450 --> 00:15:58,610
that area it's been extremely untrim

371
00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:01,460
front it's problematic bogged down in

372
00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:04,310
endless debates and problems and of

373
00:16:08,290 --> 00:16:05,830
course that is the problem that

374
00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:08,300
underlies many of the themes discussed

375
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:12,260
on skeptic 0 in the skeptic podcasts and

376
00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:14,810
on the website because if the mind is

377
00:16:19,930 --> 00:16:17,630
nothing but the brain then things like

378
00:16:22,660 --> 00:16:19,940
telepathy and other psychic phenomena or

379
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:22,670
not to exist because they imply the

380
00:16:27,579 --> 00:16:24,410
influence of the mind at a distance

381
00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:27,589
beyond the brain and so the materialist

382
00:16:32,020 --> 00:16:29,660
assumption then leads to a dogmatic

383
00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:32,030
denial of psychic phenomena and an

384
00:16:38,260 --> 00:16:34,790
attempt at all costs to deny or rubbish

385
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:38,270
the evidence and so a lot of the

386
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:40,370
dogmatic attitudes we encounter among

387
00:16:46,450 --> 00:16:43,610
skeptics so-called skeptics and come

388
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:46,460
from this belief system so in it's not

389
00:16:51,010 --> 00:16:49,310
just one particular belief it's part of

390
00:16:52,540 --> 00:16:51,020
a whole package of beliefs on the

391
00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:52,550
terrorist worldview which is

392
00:16:57,519 --> 00:16:55,519
what my book is critiquing by taking the

393
00:17:00,850 --> 00:16:57,529
pot one by one and looking at the

394
00:17:03,190 --> 00:17:00,860
evidence and I think it does a great job

395
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:03,200
of that a very convincing job of that I

396
00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:05,839
do have to just kind of play out if we

397
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:08,569
might have to turn the model around

398
00:17:14,410 --> 00:17:11,290
though instead of science driving this

399
00:17:16,419 --> 00:17:14,420
materialism in this materialistic belief

400
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:16,429
system if it's not the other way around

401
00:17:22,090 --> 00:17:18,530
because certainly if we look at the

402
00:17:24,790 --> 00:17:22,100
extent to which materialism is so amesh

403
00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:24,800
in our political and economic system in

404
00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:26,569
a way that would be almost impossible to

405
00:17:30,850 --> 00:17:29,030
pull it out you just have to wonder if

406
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:30,860
it's a chicken in the egg thing can

407
00:17:35,710 --> 00:17:34,130
science really rescue us from that if if

408
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:35,720
we come up with a different worldview

409
00:17:41,110 --> 00:17:38,210
that suggests all the things that lie

410
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:41,120
beyond materialism can we really get

411
00:17:44,740 --> 00:17:42,890
there with the kind of political and

412
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:44,750
economic systems we have in place I

413
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:48,080
don't see why not I I mean if we went

414
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:49,910
beyond materialism in the realm of

415
00:17:54,850 --> 00:17:52,610
medicine for example and we'd have a

416
00:17:58,810 --> 00:17:54,860
medical system that was more inclusive

417
00:18:00,250 --> 00:17:58,820
and holistic and probably cheaper that

418
00:18:02,380 --> 00:18:00,260
wouldn't please the pharmaceutical

419
00:18:04,780 --> 00:18:02,390
companies but it would certainly please

420
00:18:06,610 --> 00:18:04,790
a lot of National Health Services and

421
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:06,620
medical insurers if one could deliver

422
00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:10,640
better health care cheaper by getting

423
00:18:14,380 --> 00:18:12,470
breaking down the taboos and barriers

424
00:18:16,510 --> 00:18:14,390
that presently mean that only

425
00:18:18,669 --> 00:18:16,520
mechanistic medicine is treated

426
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:18,679
seriously by these funding and research

427
00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:22,010
agencies and I think that's perfectly

428
00:18:26,110 --> 00:18:24,140
doable there's already plenty of people

429
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:26,120
doing it it's just not political

430
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:29,210
mainstream at the moment and and I don't

431
00:18:35,049 --> 00:18:31,010
think that would be a huge reform a

432
00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:35,059
difficult reform I think politically a

433
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:37,940
non materialists answer post materialist

434
00:18:42,490 --> 00:18:39,710
science that was more organic or

435
00:18:44,820 --> 00:18:42,500
holistic and it would be much more

436
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:44,830
compatible with people's own experience

437
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:48,010
it would be much more compatible with a

438
00:18:52,210 --> 00:18:49,970
healthier relationship to the

439
00:18:53,740 --> 00:18:52,220
environment and I think that these

440
00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:53,750
things would probably be quite popular

441
00:19:02,610 --> 00:18:57,970
politically I don't think that this is

442
00:19:05,530 --> 00:19:02,620
materialism isn't an essential part of

443
00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:05,540
the apparatus of government state and

444
00:19:09,399 --> 00:19:06,080
industry

445
00:19:11,169 --> 00:19:09,409
it is right now but materialism only

446
00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:11,179
became the predominant view within

447
00:19:16,389 --> 00:19:14,230
science by the late 19th century and

448
00:19:20,169 --> 00:19:16,399
before that most scientists were

449
00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:20,179
journalists and found no problem those

450
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:22,510
governments for journalists and

451
00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:25,130
journalism I'm not a juror's myself I

452
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:28,190
think it's too limited of you but it

453
00:19:31,539 --> 00:19:29,600
meant there was more harmony between

454
00:19:34,060 --> 00:19:31,549
science and religion they lived in kind

455
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:34,070
of separate compartments materialism

456
00:19:39,549 --> 00:19:36,890
leads to an onslaught in its more

457
00:19:41,919 --> 00:19:39,559
militant forms on any form of religious

458
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:41,929
belief and that's deeply upsetting

459
00:19:45,820 --> 00:19:44,000
politically for a lot of people and

460
00:19:49,539 --> 00:19:45,830
that's why in the u.s. does this kind of

461
00:19:51,820 --> 00:19:49,549
religious right backlash which is too

462
00:19:54,549 --> 00:19:51,830
largely confined to the US but I think

463
00:19:58,149 --> 00:19:54,559
one can only see the context for that in

464
00:20:00,659 --> 00:19:58,159
in a kind of militant materialism which

465
00:20:02,980 --> 00:20:00,669
asserts that science disproves God

466
00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:02,990
evolution shows there's no such thing as

467
00:20:09,220 --> 00:20:07,100
God and science is right therefore God

468
00:20:11,019 --> 00:20:09,230
doesn't exist and Richard Dawkins was

469
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:11,029
professor of public understanding of

470
00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:13,970
science at Oxford and his atheist views

471
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:16,100
in his mind has simply equated with

472
00:20:21,070 --> 00:20:18,710
science so 20 crates science with

473
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:21,080
atheism and materialism then you're

474
00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:22,850
going to alienate a lot of people and

475
00:20:27,549 --> 00:20:25,760
caused big political backlashes and so I

476
00:20:30,610 --> 00:20:27,559
think it's done more harm than good and

477
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:30,620
actually creates more problems far more

478
00:20:35,019 --> 00:20:32,570
problems than unnecessary I don't know

479
00:20:38,259 --> 00:20:35,029
about more harm than good but I I think

480
00:20:40,899 --> 00:20:38,269
personally it really brings the question

481
00:20:43,740 --> 00:20:40,909
more into focus more honestly and fairly

482
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:43,750
more on the table than to otherwise

483
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:46,010
obscure it because that's the one part i

484
00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:48,710
guess i really want to push on is at the

485
00:20:54,430 --> 00:20:51,350
end of the day the end of materialism

486
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:54,440
means the end of atheism and that's what

487
00:20:59,200 --> 00:20:56,090
we're fighting about and i think it

488
00:21:02,560 --> 00:20:59,210
requires us to seriously consider all

489
00:21:05,379 --> 00:21:02,570
sorts of questions about the spiritual

490
00:21:08,860 --> 00:21:05,389
quote unquote and again i think that's

491
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:08,870
what this debate the underlying fight is

492
00:21:13,690 --> 00:21:11,600
all about so don't we need to be more

493
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:13,700
upfront about that and particularly in

494
00:21:19,450 --> 00:21:16,720
these alternative sciences like

495
00:21:19,779 --> 00:21:19,460
parapsychology don't we have to deal

496
00:21:22,060 --> 00:21:19,789
with

497
00:21:23,259 --> 00:21:22,070
fat head on let me take that one small

498
00:21:25,239 --> 00:21:23,269
step further I mean to me the

499
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:25,249
implications are clear if consciousness

500
00:21:31,090 --> 00:21:28,369
survives death which seems to be most

501
00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:31,100
likely true then that's just as just

502
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:33,529
about every religion throughout time has

503
00:21:37,690 --> 00:21:35,440
told us and if there is some

504
00:21:40,570 --> 00:21:37,700
hierarchical order to consciousness

505
00:21:42,879 --> 00:21:40,580
again something that seems to be

506
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:42,889
indicated by the data we have then that

507
00:21:47,169 --> 00:21:44,960
sure sounds like something that we would

508
00:21:49,719 --> 00:21:47,179
call God most religions would call God

509
00:21:52,539 --> 00:21:49,729
so aren't these issues aren't these

510
00:21:54,669 --> 00:21:52,549
topics these spiritual topics really

511
00:21:55,839 --> 00:21:54,679
right there under the surface of that

512
00:21:57,940 --> 00:21:55,849
and isn't that what we're really

513
00:22:01,269 --> 00:21:57,950
fighting about well I guess it's as

514
00:22:03,749 --> 00:22:01,279
simple as that and because for example

515
00:22:05,549 --> 00:22:03,759
take parapsychology among

516
00:22:07,419 --> 00:22:05,559
parapsychologist sometimes

517
00:22:10,899 --> 00:22:07,429
parapsychologists and materialists and

518
00:22:12,879 --> 00:22:10,909
atheists others uh questions other the

519
00:22:14,979 --> 00:22:12,889
butt is sore inlet Rupert that's just

520
00:22:17,529 --> 00:22:14,989
because they've sold out to try and get

521
00:22:19,869 --> 00:22:17,539
some scientific legitimacy they've you

522
00:22:21,580 --> 00:22:19,879
know adopted these atheistic ideas in a

523
00:22:23,409 --> 00:22:21,590
way that I think I i I'd like you to

524
00:22:26,289 --> 00:22:23,419
point out one of them that has any kind

525
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:26,299
of consistent theory for how atheism

526
00:22:31,180 --> 00:22:28,960
could possibly be compatible with

527
00:22:32,979 --> 00:22:31,190
survival of consciousness I mean what

528
00:22:35,139 --> 00:22:32,989
super sigh mean what we mean there are

529
00:22:37,570 --> 00:22:35,149
federal quite eminent parapsychologist

530
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:37,580
who are atheists and dick behrman in

531
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:40,369
holland for example Richard Branson who

532
00:22:44,430 --> 00:22:42,080
used to be at the rhine center now at

533
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:44,440
the University of Northampton in England

534
00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:47,330
Damien Broderick whose rights popular

535
00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:49,609
books on and science fiction and it

536
00:22:53,979 --> 00:22:52,159
knows a lot about parapsychology he's an

537
00:22:57,219 --> 00:22:53,989
atheist from the materialist but does

538
00:22:59,739 --> 00:22:57,229
any of that make any sense to you well

539
00:23:02,379 --> 00:22:59,749
the thing is that it does actually I

540
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:02,389
mean what they add may who needed the

541
00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:03,919
Stargate research he's in it

542
00:23:08,649 --> 00:23:05,809
materialists an atheist and yet an

543
00:23:10,769 --> 00:23:08,659
eminent parapsychologist so there isn't

544
00:23:13,479 --> 00:23:10,779
a simple correlation between

545
00:23:17,710 --> 00:23:13,489
parapsychology and and religious belief

546
00:23:20,379 --> 00:23:17,720
and now what they hope for and what I

547
00:23:22,330 --> 00:23:20,389
think is a real alternative is that the

548
00:23:26,879 --> 00:23:22,340
narrow dogmatic materials and we now

549
00:23:30,129 --> 00:23:26,889
have could be replaced by a kind of

550
00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:30,139
organic holistic worldview which

551
00:23:33,789 --> 00:23:33,049
wouldn't necessarily imply the existence

552
00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:33,799
of

553
00:23:38,889 --> 00:23:36,230
God it would be perhaps pantheistic or

554
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:38,899
animistic without being theistic orbea

555
00:23:43,090 --> 00:23:41,330
stick and so I think there's an

556
00:23:46,479 --> 00:23:43,100
intermediate position which is not

557
00:23:49,450 --> 00:23:46,489
either just atheistic materialism or

558
00:23:50,979 --> 00:23:49,460
full blend religion and spirituality I

559
00:23:52,779 --> 00:23:50,989
think there is an intermediate position

560
00:23:57,820 --> 00:23:52,789
where I think it could still be possible

561
00:23:59,470 --> 00:23:57,830
to be an atheist and but not on the

562
00:24:00,820 --> 00:23:59,480
basis of this narrow dogmatic

563
00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:00,830
materialism there's on a much more

564
00:24:06,849 --> 00:24:03,289
sophisticated form of materialism you

565
00:24:08,769 --> 00:24:06,859
sound much less convincing in that

566
00:24:11,259 --> 00:24:08,779
argument in that position I don't think

567
00:24:13,210 --> 00:24:11,269
that's your position and and I just know

568
00:24:15,340 --> 00:24:13,220
it's not my position but but what I

569
00:24:17,649 --> 00:24:15,350
don't want you see I think it's really

570
00:24:19,930 --> 00:24:17,659
important to D couple arguments about

571
00:24:22,419 --> 00:24:19,940
atheism and religion which get people

572
00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:22,429
passionately involved with articles of

573
00:24:26,889 --> 00:24:24,710
personal faith and personal experience I

574
00:24:28,899 --> 00:24:26,899
think we can decouple it from religion

575
00:24:30,849 --> 00:24:28,909
but but from spirituality I think that's

576
00:24:33,460 --> 00:24:30,859
part of the problem I think all these

577
00:24:35,799 --> 00:24:33,470
questions of the spiritual are not very

578
00:24:38,259 --> 00:24:35,809
deep in these questions they're right

579
00:24:41,349 --> 00:24:38,269
there under the paper thins surface of

580
00:24:43,180 --> 00:24:41,359
it survival of consciousness if we just

581
00:24:45,249 --> 00:24:43,190
look at the data and we say well that it

582
00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:45,259
seems to suggest that yeah consciousness

583
00:24:49,899 --> 00:24:47,600
survives death I mean that immediately

584
00:24:51,899 --> 00:24:49,909
for any man on the street as well as any

585
00:24:54,430 --> 00:24:51,909
scientists immediately launch us into

586
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:54,440
deep questions of the spiritual I don't

587
00:24:58,779 --> 00:24:56,210
know how you get around that well I mean

588
00:25:00,669 --> 00:24:58,789
survival of consciousness is you know

589
00:25:02,979 --> 00:25:00,679
one aspect of religion or spirituality

590
00:25:05,889 --> 00:25:02,989
but there have been spiritual people

591
00:25:08,470 --> 00:25:05,899
including many Jews for thousands of

592
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:08,480
years who are religious and spiritual

593
00:25:12,460 --> 00:25:10,369
but don't believe in survival of

594
00:25:14,619 --> 00:25:12,470
consciousness so again there's not a

595
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:14,629
hundred percent correlation between

596
00:25:19,149 --> 00:25:17,210
these points of view you know even at

597
00:25:20,919 --> 00:25:19,159
the time of Jesus one of the great

598
00:25:23,950 --> 00:25:20,929
debates going on at the time the New

599
00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:23,960
Testament was being formulated in the

600
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:25,720
life of Jesus and then in the subsequent

601
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:28,850
discussions was there the Sadducees the

602
00:25:33,399 --> 00:25:31,129
temple priests didn't believe in

603
00:25:36,009 --> 00:25:33,409
survival where's the Pharisees did and

604
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:36,019
this was a really big debate and that

605
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:37,730
debate still goes on in the in the

606
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:41,450
Jewish community so it's it's even there

607
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:44,720
both sides are devout religious people

608
00:25:50,740 --> 00:25:47,360
with a spiritual experience and and

609
00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:50,750
dimension so I think it's quite

610
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:53,750
important to decouple these although

611
00:25:58,899 --> 00:25:55,970
these Sciences very relevant to these

612
00:26:01,120 --> 00:25:58,909
issues it doesn't nap in such a way that

613
00:26:03,460 --> 00:26:01,130
you know to be an atheist you've got to

614
00:26:05,289 --> 00:26:03,470
be a kind of dork in style materialist

615
00:26:09,310 --> 00:26:05,299
ought to be a religious person you've

616
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:09,320
got to be a duelist and or I think what

617
00:26:13,539 --> 00:26:11,450
we're heading for is in a post

618
00:26:16,060 --> 00:26:13,549
materialist worldview which is what my

619
00:26:18,220 --> 00:26:16,070
book is trying to point way towards we

620
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:18,230
could have a holistic way of looking at

621
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:20,450
things a scientific investigation of

622
00:26:25,630 --> 00:26:22,850
things which leaves these bigger

623
00:26:27,549 --> 00:26:25,640
questions open and for example in one

624
00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:27,559
chapter of the book where I'm dealing

625
00:26:32,289 --> 00:26:29,120
with the dogma that memories are stored

626
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:32,299
as material traces inside the brain that

627
00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:33,919
becomes the question our memory is

628
00:26:39,340 --> 00:26:36,500
stored as material traces in brains and

629
00:26:41,860 --> 00:26:39,350
I myself technique memories are stored

630
00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:41,870
in veins I think that brings more like

631
00:26:48,070 --> 00:26:45,710
tuning devices more like TV receivers

632
00:26:50,470 --> 00:26:48,080
and like video recorders now that has

633
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:50,480
that's really a scientific question how

634
00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:52,730
his memory is stored and we can do

635
00:26:57,850 --> 00:26:55,070
experiments to try and find out how it

636
00:27:01,480 --> 00:26:57,860
is how memory works it has religious

637
00:27:02,919 --> 00:27:01,490
implications because materialism says if

638
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:02,929
memories are stored that memories are

639
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:04,850
stored in brains the brain decays at

640
00:27:09,789 --> 00:27:06,799
death therefore memories wiped out at

641
00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:09,799
death there's no possibility of any kind

642
00:27:15,130 --> 00:27:12,289
of survival personal survival without

643
00:27:17,230 --> 00:27:15,140
memory and so from the terrorists it's a

644
00:27:19,180 --> 00:27:17,240
simple two-step argument members are

645
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,190
stored in brains the brain decays at

646
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:21,200
death therefore members of white car to

647
00:27:26,140 --> 00:27:23,510
death therefore all fairies of survival

648
00:27:28,810 --> 00:27:26,150
reincarnation purgatory The Last

649
00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:28,820
Judgment you know all these all fairies

650
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:30,950
are wiped out whereas if memories are

651
00:27:36,159 --> 00:27:33,200
not stored in brains if they depend on a

652
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:36,169
resonance process then the memories

653
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:37,970
themselves are not wiped out of death

654
00:27:42,789 --> 00:27:40,370
they're potentially accessible but that

655
00:27:44,980 --> 00:27:42,799
doesn't prove they are accessed that

656
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:44,990
there is personal survival it just means

657
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:46,970
that's a possibility whereas with

658
00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:49,850
materialism it's an impossibility so one

659
00:27:53,139 --> 00:27:51,470
position leaves the preservative leaves

660
00:27:56,740 --> 00:27:53,149
the question closed and the other leaves

661
00:27:58,659 --> 00:27:56,750
it open one last question dr. sheldrick

662
00:28:01,680 --> 00:27:58,669
what do you think you

663
00:28:04,299 --> 00:28:01,690
the future for academia visa V

664
00:28:06,999 --> 00:28:04,309
materialism it is again it seemed so

665
00:28:09,369 --> 00:28:07,009
imaged so institutionalized at this

666
00:28:12,609 --> 00:28:09,379
point I know that you've mentioned that

667
00:28:14,139 --> 00:28:12,619
your son is studying for his ph.d first

668
00:28:17,470 --> 00:28:14,149
of all congratulations to him on that

669
00:28:20,159 --> 00:28:17,480
but let's say he came to you and said he

670
00:28:23,529 --> 00:28:20,169
wanted to pursue a career in academia

671
00:28:27,249 --> 00:28:23,539
what advice would you give him for

672
00:28:29,859 --> 00:28:27,259
trying to one either get along with the

673
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:29,869
system as it is or or change it in the

674
00:28:34,419 --> 00:28:31,850
direction that you'd like to see change

675
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:34,429
happen well he's doing his PhD in

676
00:28:39,519 --> 00:28:37,279
tropical ecology in a way that's not

677
00:28:41,889 --> 00:28:39,529
particularly reductionist it's a more

678
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:41,899
holistic kind of ecological fieldwork

679
00:28:48,820 --> 00:28:44,570
approach so he's not confronting these

680
00:28:51,519 --> 00:28:48,830
questions in a direct personal way but i

681
00:28:54,009 --> 00:28:51,529
think that the there are plenty of

682
00:28:56,499 --> 00:28:54,019
people in academic science who are not

683
00:28:59,259 --> 00:28:56,509
materialists one of the points I try to

684
00:29:02,739 --> 00:28:59,269
make in my book is that a great many

685
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:02,749
scientists nowadays a not materialists

686
00:29:06,820 --> 00:29:04,850
they're not atheists the culture of

687
00:29:09,549 --> 00:29:06,830
science and indeed of the academic world

688
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:09,559
is generally speaking atheistic and

689
00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:12,799
materialistic and but that's the kind of

690
00:29:17,710 --> 00:29:14,840
surface culture what people pay lip

691
00:29:19,389 --> 00:29:17,720
service to in public in private there's

692
00:29:20,979 --> 00:29:19,399
a great many people with different views

693
00:29:22,389 --> 00:29:20,989
there are a large for spiritual but not

694
00:29:24,190 --> 00:29:22,399
religious there are a lot to our

695
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:24,200
religious there are not you've had

696
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:26,330
mystical experiences that are not to

697
00:29:32,019 --> 00:29:29,840
have psychic experiences and and there

698
00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:32,029
are lots of been to alternative

699
00:29:37,060 --> 00:29:34,369
practitioners and take seriously there

700
00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:37,070
is alternative healing methods and in

701
00:29:42,039 --> 00:29:39,289
fact at all those often I think they'd

702
00:29:44,590 --> 00:29:42,049
be the majority of people within science

703
00:29:47,349 --> 00:29:44,600
a further point is that if we look at

704
00:29:50,889 --> 00:29:47,359
young scientists today the scientists of

705
00:29:52,389 --> 00:29:50,899
the future last year India graduated two

706
00:29:55,210 --> 00:29:52,399
and a half million science and

707
00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:55,220
engineering at graduates China one and a

708
00:29:59,799 --> 00:29:56,960
half million the u.s. half a million

709
00:30:01,989 --> 00:29:59,809
Britain 100,000 but in Britain and the

710
00:30:05,049 --> 00:30:01,999
u.s. about a third of them at graduate

711
00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:05,059
level were Indians Chinese and Koreans

712
00:30:10,450 --> 00:30:07,849
so the majority of young scientists in

713
00:30:11,020 --> 00:30:10,460
the world today are not European or

714
00:30:16,150 --> 00:30:11,030
American

715
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:16,160
more they're asian and the Chinese have

716
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:18,890
an ambiguous attitude some materialist

717
00:30:23,620 --> 00:30:20,930
some interests and Taoism and

718
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:23,630
traditional Chinese beliefs most Indians

719
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:25,490
the great majority of Indian scientists

720
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:27,170
and pretty straightforward Hindus and

721
00:30:34,810 --> 00:30:30,170
Muslims when they're off duty they're

722
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:34,820
not materialists and atheists so most

723
00:30:38,980 --> 00:30:37,520
scientists today simply don't fit into

724
00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:38,990
that position but when they're at work

725
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:42,350
they pretension that they pretend to go

726
00:30:46,660 --> 00:30:44,510
along with that overall you know that

727
00:30:48,850 --> 00:30:46,670
kind of what seems like a consensus

728
00:30:50,890 --> 00:30:48,860
reality as soon as they're off duty they

729
00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:50,900
revert to completely different views I

730
00:30:56,380 --> 00:30:53,270
would say the majority of scientists in

731
00:30:59,140 --> 00:30:56,390
fact have that lead a split life what

732
00:31:01,060 --> 00:30:59,150
I'm proposing is that scientists come

733
00:31:03,010 --> 00:31:01,070
out speak much more freely about their

734
00:31:04,690 --> 00:31:03,020
own experiences and interest to their

735
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:04,700
colleagues and they'll find that a great

736
00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:07,130
many of the others share these interests

737
00:31:11,890 --> 00:31:08,720
or have things that they're they can

738
00:31:16,180 --> 00:31:11,900
talk about fruitfully that this material

739
00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:16,190
is dogmatism is a facade behind which

740
00:31:20,980 --> 00:31:18,620
there are some true believers Richard

741
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:20,990
Dawkins is certainly one and he's done

742
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:22,850
us all the service by making these views

743
00:31:29,130 --> 00:31:24,890
say explicit and expressing them so

744
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:29,140
forcefully and but I think the majority

745
00:31:34,150 --> 00:31:31,730
don't have those views I think of it as

746
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:34,160
being rather like Russia under Brezhnev

747
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:37,130
and you know in that late communist

748
00:31:42,820 --> 00:31:40,010
phase of the Soviet Union in public

749
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:42,830
almost everyone went along with Marxism

750
00:31:46,990 --> 00:31:45,170
and dialectical materialism a few

751
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:47,000
dissident stood out against it in the

752
00:31:52,990 --> 00:31:50,510
sent to psychiatric institutions but and

753
00:31:54,730 --> 00:31:53,000
the majority just went along with it as

754
00:31:57,220 --> 00:31:54,740
if they believed it and now they

755
00:31:59,380 --> 00:31:57,230
dutifully except at public meetings two

756
00:32:01,090 --> 00:31:59,390
speeches by the party leaders and so

757
00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:01,100
forth but when the Soviet empire

758
00:32:05,650 --> 00:32:03,200
collapsed how many really believed it

759
00:32:07,810 --> 00:32:05,660
probably any quite a small minority I

760
00:32:11,380 --> 00:32:07,820
think it's rather like that in science

761
00:32:13,660 --> 00:32:11,390
and so I think that when few people feel

762
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:13,670
free to come out and speak freely and

763
00:32:19,450 --> 00:32:16,130
when scientists feel they don't have to

764
00:32:21,670 --> 00:32:19,460
pay lip service to this dogma and they

765
00:32:23,860 --> 00:32:21,680
it's not as if the whole academic world

766
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:23,870
will suddenly oppose it as one person

767
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:24,650
they

768
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:26,570
and a lot of people would be enormously

769
00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:28,370
relieved and I think the academic world

770
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:30,230
would get a new lease of life through

771
00:32:33,790 --> 00:32:31,700
people being able to speak and think

772
00:32:36,370 --> 00:32:33,800
more freely that's certainly a

773
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,380
wonderfully optimistic future that you

774
00:32:40,810 --> 00:32:38,720
paint and let's hope we get there Rupert

775
00:32:42,970 --> 00:32:40,820
tell folks what's coming up for you

776
00:32:46,330 --> 00:32:42,980
again the book available right now at

777
00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:46,340
amazon science set free ten paths to new

778
00:32:51,970 --> 00:32:48,710
discovery what's coming up in terms of

779
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:51,980
your speaking lecture circuit your seems

780
00:32:54,580 --> 00:32:53,510
like we're always hearing about cheer

781
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:54,590
and you're popping up with some new

782
00:32:58,720 --> 00:32:56,480
YouTube videos and the like which is

783
00:33:00,460 --> 00:32:58,730
great to hear what's coming up for you

784
00:33:04,860 --> 00:33:00,470
in the near future well in the near

785
00:33:06,790 --> 00:33:04,870
future in San Francisco September 7th at

786
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:06,800
california institute of integral studies

787
00:33:11,170 --> 00:33:08,930
i'm giving a book launch lecture for

788
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:11,180
this book which is published in the US

789
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:13,510
and canada on September the fourth and

790
00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:16,130
sep 10 to the 8th and giving a deal

791
00:33:22,330 --> 00:33:20,150
week-long workshop on it the following

792
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:22,340
weekend at the Esalen Institute in Big

793
00:33:27,060 --> 00:33:24,710
Sur California I'm doing a weekend

794
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:27,070
workshop on the themes of this book and

795
00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:29,930
those are my main things in September

796
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:32,750
then I'm going back to England and in

797
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:36,650
Canada right now and I'm going to the US

798
00:33:42,970 --> 00:33:40,730
again in november i'm going to be doing

799
00:33:45,820 --> 00:33:42,980
some talks in New York mainly at the

800
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:45,830
open center and not doing anything in

801
00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:47,690
between and my publisher said there's no

802
00:33:53,950 --> 00:33:49,760
point trying to do book promotion before

803
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:53,960
a presidential election in the US so

804
00:33:58,060 --> 00:33:56,210
that so I'm not coming back to the week

805
00:34:00,220 --> 00:33:58,070
after the presidential election when

806
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:00,230
hopefully the hanging chads will have

807
00:34:04,930 --> 00:34:03,050
been sorted out and I'll be able to and

808
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:04,940
you know things are things should be

809
00:34:10,540 --> 00:34:08,330
getting back to normal and so that's the

810
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:10,550
main thing and meanwhile there will be

811
00:34:17,530 --> 00:34:14,570
various YouTube's and and discussions

812
00:34:20,620 --> 00:34:17,540
about the book there's already some

813
00:34:23,409 --> 00:34:20,630
lectures online about the book from my

814
00:34:25,210 --> 00:34:23,419
presentations in England and anyone

815
00:34:30,909 --> 00:34:25,220
who's interested conceding there on my

816
00:34:32,590 --> 00:34:30,919
website www sheldrick org and anyone

817
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:32,600
who's interested in knowing where i'll

818
00:34:36,970 --> 00:34:35,030
be speaking what i'll be doing can sign

819
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:36,980
on from my can look at the website or

820
00:34:40,919 --> 00:34:38,290
sign on for my e

821
00:34:43,169 --> 00:34:40,929
is letter which I send out any every

822
00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:43,179
couple of months but it gives an update

823
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:45,730
on my various activities for those who

824
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:48,250
are interested great I get those emails

825
00:34:53,010 --> 00:34:50,650
and it is nice that they're on a regular

826
00:34:55,050 --> 00:34:53,020
basis but you don't overwhelm folks with

827
00:34:57,690 --> 00:34:55,060
useless information so it's very well

828
00:34:59,400 --> 00:34:57,700
done well dr. sheldrick thanks again for

829
00:35:01,770 --> 00:34:59,410
joining us today best of luck with the

830
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:01,780
book and hopefully we'll we'll touch

831
00:35:06,510 --> 00:35:03,520
base with you again in the not too

832
00:35:08,190 --> 00:35:06,520
distant future good thanks very much and

833
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:08,200
all the best to you and a great let you

834
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:11,110
do thanks again to dr. shelter for

835
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:13,090
joining me today on skeptic Oh a couple

836
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:15,370
of questions i guess i tee up i think

837
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:18,160
the main thrust of this book is topics

838
00:35:23,070 --> 00:35:20,410
that we've covered over and over and

839
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:23,080
over again in terms of materialism but i

840
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:25,090
particularly like the way that he's

841
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:27,010
drawn out these assumptions that

842
00:35:31,710 --> 00:35:29,530
materialism is based on and turn them

843
00:35:34,350 --> 00:35:31,720
into rather provocative questions that

844
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:34,360
even when one's first hears them you're

845
00:35:39,180 --> 00:35:36,310
kind of drawn to say yeah why would I

846
00:35:41,070 --> 00:35:39,190
assume that that's true so I think it

847
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:41,080
might be interesting to flesh some of

848
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:42,970
those out on the forum and discuss those

849
00:35:46,380 --> 00:35:44,770
questions if someone would like to do

850
00:35:49,020 --> 00:35:46,390
that that would be much appreciated and

851
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:49,030
the second topic I want to discuss is

852
00:35:53,070 --> 00:35:50,560
this last one that I brought up with him

853
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:53,080
and keeps popping up for me at least and

854
00:35:59,670 --> 00:35:55,930
that is this connection between a post

855
00:36:02,250 --> 00:35:59,680
materialism scientific world and the

856
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:02,260
spiritual so again to me it's clear that

857
00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:04,960
as soon as we get past materialism we

858
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:07,540
have to confront head on these questions

859
00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:10,570
of spirit are their spiritual beings

860
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:12,400
what happens to consciousness after we

861
00:36:16,770 --> 00:36:14,710
die and i'm not advocating that we

862
00:36:18,810 --> 00:36:16,780
approach those from at all a religious

863
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:18,820
standpoint but from a scientific

864
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:21,610
standpoint the best way we can it just

865
00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:23,770
seems to me clear that those questions

866
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:26,110
come to the forefront right away as soon

867
00:36:30,780 --> 00:36:29,050
as we make that step beyond materialism

868
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:30,790
so it will be interesting to see what

869
00:36:35,820 --> 00:36:33,520
you have to say about that of course the

870
00:36:41,070 --> 00:36:35,830
place to connect is on The Skeptical

871
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:41,080
website it's at sk-ii pti k Oh calm as I

872
00:36:45,210 --> 00:36:42,970
mentioned in a previous episode there's

873
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:45,220
a new version of the comment section

874
00:36:50,670 --> 00:36:47,530
that makes it really handy to follow

875
00:36:52,020 --> 00:36:50,680
threaded conversations so I invite you

876
00:36:53,970 --> 00:36:52,030
to check that out in

877
00:36:55,350 --> 00:36:53,980
comment section the website and then of

878
00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:55,360
course there's the form which is a very

879
00:36:59,640 --> 00:36:57,520
popular place for folks to kind of hash

880
00:37:01,740 --> 00:36:59,650
out some of these ideas either one of

881
00:37:04,050 --> 00:37:01,750
those places are the place to go and of

882
00:37:06,450 --> 00:37:04,060
course you can always email me or

883
00:37:08,010 --> 00:37:06,460
connect with me on Facebook I try to get

884
00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:08,020
to as many of those as I can it can't

885
00:37:11,850 --> 00:37:10,510
always get to all of them but I try well

886
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:11,860
that's going to do it for this episode i

887
00:37:16,110 --> 00:37:14,050
have several interesting shows coming up

888
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:16,120
be sure to stay with me for all of that

889
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:18,250
be sure to tell your friends and blog

890
00:37:21,930 --> 00:37:20,050
and write about skeptical whenever you

891
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:21,940
can it's interesting that we've had a

892
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:24,730
steady uptick in skeptic Oh listenership

893
00:37:29,730 --> 00:37:27,670
but especially in the last month or two

894
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:29,740
it's really kind of kicked into gear and

895
00:37:33,390 --> 00:37:31,570
maybe that's just because I've been

896
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:33,400
putting these out every week I don't

897
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:35,050
know how much longer I can keep that up

898
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:39,130
but I will try so again that's it for